18. Finding Minimalism and Connection Through Fly Fishing with John Mahler

In episode 18 of the Outdoor Minimalist Podcast, I’m excited to be exploring a topic we briefly covered before: fly fishing!

Fly fishing is a super interesting outdoor sport to me, and a surprisingly low impact and minimalist endeavor. To help me discuss all things fly fishing, I’d like to introduce Joe Mahler.

Joe Mahler is a fly fishing author, illustrator, and casting coach. He fishes, canoes, and teaches in the waters of southwest Florida and the Everglades. His work appears in FlyFisherman magazine, Salmon & Steelhead, Outdoor Life, and other publications.

Joe Mahler

Website: https://www.joemahler.com/

Illustrations: https://www.joemahler.com/illustration

Casting Lessons: https://www.joemahler.com/home

Books

Essential Knots and Rigs for Trout

Essential Knots and Rigs for Salt Water

This transcript was edited to remove some filler words and phrases and is not verbatim according to what is spoken in the audio recording.

Meg: So, thank you for joining me today, Joe. I'm really excited to have you on the show and to learn a little bit more about you and your passion.

Before we start talking about that, can you tell me a little bit more about your love for outdoor recreation and how you landed where you are in your career and activities today?

Joe: Yeah, you know, absolutely, and thanks for having me. I really, really appreciate you doing that. I can't—like a lot of people who end up in the outdoor world—I came from kind of a strange place. My background is in advertising. I'm a writer and illustrator, mostly an illustrator, and I worked at agencies and that sort of stuff. I sold things to people that they really didn't need and all that.

About 20 years ago, my wife told me we were moving to Florida. I'm originally from Indiana, and I didn't particularly want to move to Florida because, you know, I'd been here before. All I saw were beaches, which are fine, but also strip malls and that kind of thing. What I didn’t realize was that Florida has this incredible network of hundreds of thousands of miles of shoreline, backcountry, and places most people never see when they think of Florida.

It took me a little while to discover that. As I mentioned, I'm a writer by trade—or an illustrator first, and then a writer—and I started writing outdoor articles about 15 years ago, freelancing since I’ve been down here. Then, work really dried up; things went kind of south. Nothing was really coming in, and I was feeling pretty down.

My wife asked me, "What do you really want to do?"

I said, "Well, I really want to write and illustrate outdoor articles."

And she said, "Why don’t you do that?"

So, I put together a little marketing campaign for myself and sent it to editors of magazines, not really expecting much. But it really just took off from there.

Since then, I’ve written a couple of books on knots. Even though I only use three knots myself, I illustrated more than a hundred of them—that was really interesting! I also started teaching fly fishing about 20 years ago. Truly, that’s my passion. I mean, I love fishing, but I really love teaching.

This might be one of the best places in the world to do that because I live in Southwest Florida, near Fort Myers. I’m close to Sanibel Island and pretty close to the Everglades. It’s just an endless supply of opportunities. People come down here, maybe for a season or maybe just for a week, and they’re eager to learn.

Fly fishing, it might surprise you, is just as good in saltwater as it is in freshwater. Most people think of trout fishing when they think of fly fishing, but here, in saltwater and backcountry areas like the swamps, it’s just wonderful.

Meg: Are there a lot of differences?

I’m not a fisherperson, so are there a lot of differences in that environment when you’re not fly fishing in a stream? I feel like when I picture fly fishing, it’s someone casting in a river with mountains, you know?

Joe: Right, yeah. Well, we don’t have the mountains. We have no mountains—we have the opposite of mountains here! There are some equipment differences, though. I mean, obviously, the prey is often bigger, so the equipment is heavier. But the principles are all the same.

The part where I feel I make the biggest contribution is getting people where they need to go. The message I tell everyone is: if you want to do this, you can do it. It looks pretty intimidating—and it certainly can be, you know, when you see all sorts of things—but if you really want to do it, there’s a way. You can practice, and it’s very rewarding that way.

The classic image, as you mentioned, is someone trout fishing in a mountain stream, and that’s what most people think of when they think of fly fishing. Believe it or not, we also fly fish out in the ocean and catch things like sailfish or tarpon, which can weigh hundreds of pounds. I don’t do a lot of that, though. What I really enjoy is the backcountry kind of fishing.

I love freshwater fishing down here—that’s really my passion. I spend a lot of time in the Everglades. I paddle a lot, I canoe a lot, and that’s my favorite way to fish. Fly fishing, for me, has been like a magic carpet. I’m not sure I would have gone to half the places I’ve been if it weren’t for fly fishing. It takes me to these incredible places, and, as it turns out, fish that like to eat flies also tend to live in beautiful spots.

Honestly, I’d rather go somewhere beautiful and not catch anything than go somewhere that’s not and catch a bunch. It’s really not about the catch for me. I think you’ll find that a lot of fly fishing enthusiasts feel the same way. They’re drawn to the motion, the skills, and the whole experience—not just catching fish, which works out well for me!

Meg: I think that’s interesting. Maybe it’s just because I’m so unfamiliar with the sport, but I think it would be fascinating to talk about how people can get involved in fly fishing. I find it especially interesting to approach it from a minimalist perspective.

When you’re starting a new activity like this, you don’t have to break old habits or purge any gear. You’re starting fresh and can build the experience to fit your needs.

Joe: Absolutely. I really think of myself as a mental minimalist, and I say that because I love activities that require 100% concentration. When you’re fly fishing, you really can’t do it well and think about other things. Add paddling a canoe to the mix, and that’s it—that fills all my mental capacity.

For me, it’s incredibly relaxing because it demands total commitment. You’re fully immersed in what you’re doing.

Some of my best students—and I teach private lessons almost every day—are people who have no bad habits. And by bad habits, I don’t mean drinking or smoking! I mean habits related to the skills involved in fly fishing. Everything is new to them, and everything is exciting. It’s exactly as you said: they’re starting fresh.

As far as equipment goes, people often want to buy all kinds of stuff. It’s human nature—a golfer wants to buy a better game, and a fly fisherman wants to buy a better rod.

But it’s really the opposite of that. When someone comes for a lesson and asks, “What kind of rod do you recommend?”

I’ll ask, “What kind do you have?” The one you already have is the best one—just use it! At the highest levels, equipment can make a difference, but for beginners, the important thing is to get started with what you have.

The perception is that fly fishing is very expensive, and, like anything, it certainly can be. But it doesn’t have to be. You can reasonably get started for less than $200.

Let me know if you need further refinements!

Meg: That’s a brilliant message to have because a lot of times there is an accessibility issue—or at least the perception of one—in the outdoor industry. Whenever people ask me about something I’m familiar with, like rock climbing or backpacking, I always recommend starting with what you have and then building from there.

Maybe that means going out with a guide or taking lessons, like the ones you teach, or renting equipment to try different types before investing in something more expensive. With fishing, though, I’m trying to think about how I would approach it since I don’t know anything about it. I feel like I’d probably hire a guide if I were interested in fishing. That way, you’re not just casting into the dark, and you have someone to show you what’s going on.

Joe: Well, I work with a lot of guides. Many of them refer people to me because, where I am down here, if you hire a guide, you’re going to spend $400 for half a day. You’ll be on the front of the boat while the guide is on the back, push-poling to keep you safe, looking for fish, and managing everything. It’s a horrible time to learn skills—it’s the worst time, really.

So I typically give what I call a "guerrilla casting lesson." I equip people with the skills they’ll need for the next day. If they’ve hired a guide, I’ll ask where they’re going, and I’ll prepare them for the conditions. For example, they’ll need to handle wind and other factors.

In our kind of fishing—backcountry saltwater and freshwater—40 feet is kind of the minimum casting distance. That’s pretty long for trout fishermen, but it’s what you need down here.

Meg: That’s really interesting because I didn’t even think about how the guide could help you apply those skills. But it makes sense—having those specific lessons beforehand would make the guided experience so much better.

Joe: It absolutely does. A guide’s number one job is to get you back to the dock alive. That’s it. Teaching you how to do everything correctly is way down on their list.

Their priorities are safety, making sure you’re having a good time, and then, thirdly, helping you catch fish. People sometimes misunderstand that. You can have perfect conditions—calm seas, the presence of fish, and manageable wind—but if you don’t have the skills, it’s a waste of your money.

Some of the best students I’ve had are people who went down to the Keys and spent $2,000 on guided trips, only to get yelled at and catch nothing because they weren’t prepared. That’s what I do—I prepare people for those trips.

It’s kind of funny because my background is in trout fishing. I’ve done a lot of stream fishing. For people who live in Florida and want to fish out west, I’ll train them on trout fishing here. I even have a small stream I take them to—it has no trout in it whatsoever—but we work on skills like moving water techniques versus wind and distance casting. It’s all about learning the right skills for the environment.

Meg: I appreciate your perspective on the different ecosystems. I’ve been to Florida, but I was a lot younger—probably in middle school—and I mostly remember going to Disney World. That’s all I really know about Florida. I’ve always been really interested in the Everglades, though. Other than fly fishing, what do you think is special about the Southeast?

Joe: If you come to Florida, you should definitely do a swamp walk. I think everyone should. Florida gets kind of a bad rap sometimes, but there are people here who really care about the environment and work hard to make it better. There’s a group called Captains for Clean Water that I work with, and they’re focused on restoring the Everglades and making things better.

When you think about swamps, it’s easy to dismiss them, but a swamp walk is a completely different experience. It can be life-changing. You might think, “I’d never go in there—there are alligators and snakes!”

But once you’re in the swamp, it all makes sense. The water is crystal clear, but the bottom is brown, so it looks swampy. But when you’re in there, you can see your shoes on the bottom. Much of it is hard bottom, not the muddy kind you might expect.

As for the alligators and snakes, they’re certainly there, but it’s not as dangerous as it might sound. They tend to go in the other direction, not toward you. They’re like any other wildlife—there’s a risk, but you don’t need to be overly fearful.

Meg: I’ll be honest—I’d definitely be afraid of alligators if I were in that environment.

Joe: Yeah, I’m around them all the time, so it doesn’t faze me. But I get it. I’m afraid of bulls. Back in Indiana, we used to fish by cutting through farmers’ fields. I never had a close encounter, but I was always terrified of bulls. Eventually, I realized there wasn’t much to be afraid of.

But yeah, alligators and snakes—there’s a risk, but it’s manageable. I’d recommend doing a guided swamp walk. You can do it on your own, but it’s easy to get lost. Down here, there’s a place called Clyde Butcher’s Gallery—he’s sort of like the Ansel Adams of the South. He’s taken beautiful swamp photos, and you can hike through his area or take a swamp walk there. It’s really refreshing and beautiful.

I’ve done swamp walks to get to a place to fish, based on rumors that there were tons of fish in the area. The first couple of times I did that, I thought, “This is crazy.” But now I’m the one who knows what I’m doing!

Meg: That’s awesome. Whenever I talk to anyone really passionate about an outdoor pursuit, there always seems to be a deep connection to the landscape and the activity. When do you think that connection, along with your approach to mental minimalism, really started to shape your life? Was it always there?

Joe: It was always there. It’s always what I’ve wanted to do. I have a photo from when I was probably three years old, holding a fish by my uncle’s pond. For me, it really is a result of not being mechanically inclined. I absolutely avoid things with moving parts—boat motors, bilge pumps, anything like that. They just complicate things. You end up spending all your time fixing stuff and worrying about whether the motor will start. If my paddle breaks, I’ve got duct tape to fix it—that’s the level of repair I can handle.

Down here, we have a lot of boats, and trailer lights never work. You have to wiggle them to get them to work. Those are the kinds of things that take the fun out of it for me. So, for me, it’s about eliminating things that can go wrong and focusing on what I can control.

Meg: That makes sense—fewer items, fewer complications. I think that’s where my mind goes too.

Joe: Exactly. The more stuff you take, the more maintenance it requires. It’s interesting—when I started guiding, I talked to an emergency room doctor who was also a rock climber. I asked him what to put in my first aid kit, and he said, “Take duct tape and baby aspirin—that’s it.” He told me anything beyond that and I didn’t know what I was doing.

I asked if I should take nitroglycerin for heart attacks, and he said, “If you want to kill somebody, sure.” It was funny, but he explained that if someone has a heart attack, you give them baby aspirin and get them back to the ramp. The duct tape? I actually used it once in Canada, at an outpost lake. The boat was chained to a tree, and one of the guys there had a huge gash on his hand. We used the duct tape to bandage it, and he was out fishing on the lake later.

That’s all I needed to know about first aid—duct tape and baby aspirin. It’s a good lesson in simplicity.

Meg: That’s pretty wild! So, what would you recommend for someone just starting out with fly fishing, or even someone with a small interest, no matter where they are located? What’s a basic kit?

Joe: For fly fishing, you need a rod, reel, and line. The biggest difference between fly fishing and traditional fishing is that with traditional fishing, you’re casting a weight, like a lure or worm, to attract fish. In fly fishing, the line is the weight. It’s almost weightless compared to traditional lures, and you move the line back and forth in a beautiful unrolling motion.

The biggest shock for beginners is the price of the line. It’s usually around $100, and people are surprised by that. But the line is the heart of fly fishing—it’s what gives you that elegant, unrolling motion when you cast and present a fly.

The advantage of fly fishing over traditional fishing is that most fish spend their time eating insects or small baitfish. It’s difficult to replicate that with traditional gear because there’s no weight. In fly fishing, you can present a weightless fly, which can imitate a minnow, crayfish, or other small creatures. That’s the real advantage of it.

Meg:Yeah, I'm just trying to make those connections in my head. I have such a minimal understanding of fishing.

Joe:What's interesting about fly fishing is that a lot of people I've coached— and I say "coached" because that's really what it is— I have students who have never fished before, and others who have been fishing for 20 years and want to build advanced or expert-level skills. When people start fly fishing, they're attracted to it because of that motion, because it looks like something they can do.

Meg:Yeah, it's such a unique motion.

Joe: It is, and I’ve always felt that people who drive manual transmissions are better drivers than those who drive automatics. They're part of the engine; they’re part of every movement. There's no mindlessness when you drive a stick shift—you're involved in every bit of it.

And that’s how fly fishing is. The reel really isn’t of much significance because you don’t use it much. You retrieve the fly by pulling in the line by hand. Every bit of the cast is done using both hands. People who don’t fish think of fishing as sitting back and waiting—throwing out the line and watching it. But with fly fishing, you're constantly engaged.

Meg: Yeah, I guess it's more active than what a lot of people might imagine.

Joe: Exactly. Early on, I always had a fidgety nature. When my dad took me fishing, we'd throw the line out, and he'd say, “Now sit there and watch the bobber.” I didn’t care about catching the fish, I just wanted to reel it in and throw it out again.

I remember there was a guy in our town—he was kind of a jack of all trades—and I said, “I want to try fly fishing.” He told me, “You could never do that; you don’t have the patience.”

But that’s exactly why fly fishing was perfect for me—because it’s constant movement. You're always involved. You are the engine of the whole thing, and that’s what really attracted me to it.

Meg: Yeah, that's really interesting to hear. When I think of fishing, I grew up in the Midwest, in rural Minnesota. A lot of people in my life would go out and fish, but they would just sit and watch it. Same with ice fishing—you just sit in the shack and watch it. And I was like, that sounds so boring. But don't you drink, too, right, when you do that?

Joe: Yeah, you play cards and stuff, but you're not paying attention, and you're not really engaged, either physically or mentally. You're just kind of existing in that space, even to the point of maybe dissociating and zoning out.

Meg: Yeah, it's interesting to me to think that fly fishing could really put you in a flow state to an extent, because you are so involved.

Joe: That's a great term—"flow state." I love that. You usually only hear that with endurance-type sports, but I think you can find it with a lot of other activities. It's really about mental application.

Meg: Yeah, that's true.

Joe: And the overwhelming part of fly fishing is probably what I deal with most. Some people say, "There’s so much, and there are so many books," and I tell them, it can be as complicated as you want.

Like I said, I’ve written two books and illustrated them, but I really only use three knots. I’m not telling you not to buy my books, but I only use three knots. For me, it’s about simplicity. I want to be able to tie them in the dark if I need to, or when the wind’s blowing—just something I can do subconsciously.

Meg: Yeah, that makes sense.

Joe: One more thing about equipment— I think the best thing that ever happened to the fly fishing industry, the business side of it, is the invention of the fly fishing vest. You’ve seen those, right? With all the pockets?

Meg: Yeah.

Joe: Here’s why they’re genius: I counted the pockets on mine, which I never wear, and it has 11. Because people are people, they’re going to fill every pocket. And when they first get into fly fishing, they think, "Well, I need this, and I need that, and I need this."

The truth is, you don’t need much at all. But they’ll show up with the vest filled with everything imaginable—zingers hanging off, retractable tools, whatever. Whoever came up with the fly fishing vest was a genius at getting people to buy more stuff. You’ve got to fill the pockets!

Meg: That's really interesting. You’re going to fill whatever space you have. It kind of looks pathetic if the pockets are empty.

Joe: Exactly. Yeah, so I usually just stick a little bit of tippet (which is fishing line you might need) and a few flies, and that’s really it for me. It all fits in my shirt pocket.

Meg: That makes sense.

Joe: When it comes to gear, people sometimes obsess over it because that’s what they see in a lot of media. But the best advice I could give to a brand new fly fisherman or someone in the beginner realm, and it doesn’t have to be gear-related, is this: There’s no deadline.

Nobody’s watching. Nobody cares. It’s a personal thing. A lot of people say, "I want you to look at my cast and tell me if I’m doing it right." And I tell them, "Are you having fun? Are you enjoying it?"

If you are, then you're doing it right. If you want to get better, I can help with that. But if you’re out there having fun and not feeling like, "I look stupid," don’t worry—everyone looks stupid at some point. With practice, you won’t look stupid anymore.

Meg: Yeah, that’s great advice.

Joe: I was really fortunate growing up. My dad didn’t candy-coat things. I remember whining about how I never got to win when we had a pool table. And he said, "Why would you? You have to get better." He never let me win.

So, that's what I tell people: If you’re happy where you are, that’s fine. But if you want to get better, you need to practice. You need to put in the time and just do it. But there’s no deadline—that’s the point.

Meg: That reminds me of what you said at the beginning—starting with what you have. And then also you talking about mental minimalism because it is about being in that present moment, really kind of enjoying it, experiencing it, and learning to improve on that activity because you love it.

Joe: One other bit of advice I would give is, if you're going to spend some money and you're going to start, go buy the best. Buy a life jacket that you like the looks of, that you'll wear, and that’s comfortable. Just get used to it. Well, because you're on the ocean, you’re not like standing, so that makes sense.

Meg: Yeah.

Joe: But you know what? Even on a river, rivers can be much more dangerous. Take the Madison River, for example. You take a tumble there, and people die every year from those sorts of accidents. So get an inflatable one, the kind that inflates when it gets wet. I’ve got some of those. The most important thing is safety.

Meg: Well, that really shows how much I know about fishing! But also, that goes back to identifying your needs and the essentials. Having that safety equipment right off the bat seems like the most valuable investment so you can be comfortable and safe.

Joe: Exactly. And like I said, I paddle a lot, and I always wear my life jacket. I swim laps every day, but I still wear my life jacket when I go out. It's just part of my routine. I do it for a couple of reasons: first, I want to set a good example for others, and second, you just don’t know.

That’s one thing you can control. So I would say, go get something you like, something you’ll actually wear. Maybe something with pockets, so you can fill them with gear, or whatever you want to do.

Meg: No, those are really good tips. And I think they’re applicable to more than just fly fishing. People should start thinking about how they invest their time and money in any activity.

Joe: Yeah, definitely.

Meg: So, how can people learn more about what you're doing and your work in Florida? And how can they reach out to you if they have questions?

Joe: I’m the easiest person to find. My website is joemoller.com (M-A-H-L-E-R). I have a course set up in my neighborhood here—we have our own little park, with a pond and a grassy area. I know the neighbors are highly suspicious of what I do out there every day, casting in the grass.

But that’s the other thing I’d mention: you’ll learn more by practicing in the grass than you will on the water. It sounds strange, but it’s really the place to learn. I set up cones, and it looks like a canine training course, but it’s actually a lot of fun.

So, people can reach out to me there. I also write for Fly Fisherman magazine and do some how-to articles, so they can Google me and find that as well.

Meg: Awesome! Yeah, I’ll put a link to your website and your books in the episode description. But one thing we didn’t talk about, and I was really interested in, is your art.

Do you make art specifically for publications, like your notebook, or do you also create art in general that people can buy prints of?

Joe: Yeah, that’s an interesting question. I’m an illustrator by trade. That’s what I’ve done my whole life. So, to me, I wouldn’t even say that I’m an artist. If I have a day with nothing to do, the last thing I’ll do is draw.

I don’t know if you're familiar with storyboards for TV commercials, but I’ve done hundreds of those over the years. To me, drawing is kind of like work. I really think of illustration as another language. I’m just explaining things with pictures.

So, while there’s some desire to make art, it’s very little, and I don’t even think about it until I have either a client or a personal need. It’s like, "Well, I need this." That’s how I got into writing articles—I have a backward way of doing it. I do the illustrations first, and then I write about the pictures.

Meg: Oh, interesting! Yeah, that is a different approach. Usually, I think of it the other way.

Joe: Yeah, no query letters here—nothing like that. I have a great relationship with Fly Fisherman magazine and Ross Pernell, the editor. He understands that. But it's really hard for me to sit down and do an outline. I wasn’t a great student, to say the least.

So, for me, doing an outline ends up with me just doodling on the paper. I really have to decide what I want to say, sketch that out, and then explain it.

Meg: So, I mean, if the process works for you, that’s what’s important.

Joe: It does, yeah. And I enjoy it. I truly enjoy it. I don’t want to write every day, and I don’t want to illustrate every day anymore, but I really enjoy it when I do.

Meg: And you're involved with a group called Fish With a Hero, right? Is that correct?

Joe: Yes, that’s right. It’s a disabled veterans project—Project Healing Waters is part of it. We work with disabled vets on learning fly fishing. And I’ll tell you, anyone who has the desire to do it can do it. We work with people with various disabilities, some obvious and some not.

Early on, I got this advice, and I remember it every time I teach a lesson: "People don’t need one more thing they can’t do, they need one more thing they can do." And I start every lesson with that mindset. How can I make this enjoyable? How do I help them understand how much fun they can have, no matter what level they’re at?

Meg: That’s such a great perspective.

Joe: I had a fellow once, it was crazy. He called me and made an appointment for a lesson, and he showed up with one arm. He had one arm. So, I looked at him and said, “How are we going to do this?” And he said, "That's what I'm paying you for."

I’ll tell you, it was one of the most rewarding things I’ve ever done. We spent a couple hours figuring out how he could do it. The next day, he went out with a buddy of mine who guides in the saltwater, and he caught a really nice Pompano.

There was a whole process of figuring out how to get it in, but he did it, and he had this great attitude. He said, “I know it’s going to be hard, I know I have one arm, but I want to do this.” I think about him often, even though it’s been about eight years. It reminds me that if you want to do something, we’ll figure out a way to make it enjoyable.

Meg: That’s a really cool story, and it goes back to your message—just try to have fun and apply yourself.

Joe: Yeah, that’s the message. It’s pretty simple: If you want to do it, you can do it.

Meg: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the Outdoor Minimalist podcast. I really enjoyed the conversation.

Joe: Thanks for having me! I really enjoyed this. I also enjoy your podcast. You’ve got some great subject matter, and I’ve learned a lot from listening to some of those episodes.

Meg: So, I just want to say thank you again to Joe for taking the time to be on the show today. I learned a lot about fly fishing, and I hope that you did too. As I mentioned before, I’ll share a link in the episode description on how to contact Joe about his writing, illustrations, or even if you're in Florida and want to take a fly fishing lesson. I’ll also include links to his books, as well as some of the organizations he mentioned in the episode.