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24. Identifying Your Needs: Adventure, Gear, and Safety with Moose Mutlow

Writer's picture: Meg CarneyMeg Carney

Updated: Dec 21, 2024



In episode 24 of the Outdoor Minimalist podcast, we discuss needs. More specifically personal needs when it comes to adventures, outdoor gear, and safety.


During COVID-19, we saw a dramatic influx of new outdoor enthusiasts. This is great for many reasons, but it also means there are a lot more people entering outdoor spaces sometimes with very little knowledge of how to interact with the landscape safely and responsibly.


Even if you’re not completely new to outdoor recreation, maybe you’re like me and got into a new outdoor sport in the last couple of years. Anytime I start something new, I always go through a research and discovery process. This might look different for different people, but for me, I like to figure out what I might need, talk to people more experienced, and try things out a few times, adding gear gradually.


Getting hyperfocused on gear has its pros and cons, but in my experience, I’ve found it to be more detrimental than not. I could likely rant and rave about gear, marketing, and the psychology of shopping for quite some time, but instead, I’ll let my friend Moose Mutlow take the lead.


Moose Mutlow has been active in the outdoors for more than 30 years as an instructor and guide. Currently based in Yosemite National Park he is the senior project director for NatureBridge the largest provider of Environmental Education in the US National Park system. He has a long history of working in Search and Rescue and is a senior trainer for NPS.


Moose Mutlow



 

This transcript was edited to remove some filler words and phrases and is not verbatim according to what is spoken in the audio recording.



Meg: So thanks for joining me today, Moose. I'm looking forward to hearing more about your experiences and insights regarding gear in the outdoor industry and outdoor safety in general. But before we jump right in, can you tell me a little bit more about how you first got involved in outdoor recreation and how that fits into your life today?


Moose: I was really lucky as a kid. I had access to a park in the Midlands called Sutton Park, which is just down the road from my parents’ house. It’s heathland and woodland, and from the earliest age, I was running around, jumping in streams, running through the woods, and riding my bike down hills.


That was in Britain, so that’s kind of your opening. I was in the Cub Scouts and did camping with them, and we also had family trips to places like the Lake District or out to the coast for the beaches. We were always outdoors. Growing up, TV and computers weren’t really options—we were kicked outside. So, I had that natural playground experience to kick off a life of outdoor leisure.


Meg: That’s a great early exposure. How did you integrate that through your adult life, and how does it influence your career now?


Moose: I went to a survival camp up in the north of Scotland when I was 16 or 17. It was run by one of the first people to row across the Atlantic. I did a two-and-a-half-week course up there and found out that you could actually have a career teaching people how to climb, canoe, hike, and camp. At that point, a door opened for me—a career path I hadn’t perceived before.


Over the next three or four years, as I worked and eventually went to college, I got opportunities to canoe off the south coast of England, sail a lot, and climb. That trajectory of working summers at summer camps and instructing during the college year eventually turned into a lot of traveling. I gained enough experience to get jobs in the outdoor industry around the world.


Meg: And you don’t live in Britain anymore. What’s your main outdoor activity now, and where are you located?


Moose: I live just outside Yosemite National Park in California, and I love to be in or on the water. Canoeing is the thing I love more than anything else. I’m just a 15-minute drive from the river. I also teach swiftwater rescue for Rescue 3, so I get a chance to pass on some of that technical knowledge and train rescue teams.


I like to walk when there’s a purpose to it. If I have a dog, I’ll always go walking, but I’m not the type to just walk up and down a trail—I need a reason, whether it’s birdwatching or an expedition. I love expeditioning. Last fall, I spent time working with a veterans group on the Gulf of Mexico on a canoe expedition and also worked with Outward Bound. I really enjoy the idea of a journey with purpose.


Meg: Yeah, I agree. Once I got a dog as an adult, my walking in general increased so much. Having that goal behind the hike or walk makes it more engaging for me, too.


Moose: We have a rather large German shepherd, and he’s hugely entertaining out on the ranchland. He’s always looking for opportunities to grab baby bunnies or annoy ground squirrels. His enthusiasm for being outdoors is infectious—it’s pure joy in the moment.


There’s also pure athleticism when he’s digging after something or moving a big rock out of the way. His observation skills are incredible, too—he’ll spot a coyote way down on the pasture long before you can see it. I really enjoy that aspect of being around a dog. It’s a good cheat for getting some great wildlife sightings.


Meg: Yeah, it really is. I guess I want to start off our conversation by talking about your view of the current culture in the outdoor industry, specifically surrounding outdoor gear.


It seems like you’ve had exposure to outdoor recreation throughout your entire life and in a variety of sectors. The industry has changed a lot in the last 30 years. In your opinion, what do you think is the current nature of gear in the outdoor industry?


Moose: I am really excited that it’s no longer one-size-fits-all. I think the movement toward accommodating different genders, body shapes, and degrees of athleticism is amazing. It’s exciting to see people being more comfortable with the gear they have.


I started in the outdoors with gear you’d get from the military surplus store—a pair of ill-fitting pants, a jacket, a poncho—and that was it. There’s a certain beauty in that because it’s functional, but I fit the mean: I’m 5’11”, male, 180 pounds. I could find something that kind of fit me. But if you were on either end of the spectrum, in terms of size or gender, you had to make do with gear that honestly got in the way rather than allowing you to enjoy the activity.


Now, there’s a much better understanding of what people want and need. I remember seeing one of the first women-specific sleeping bags designed for women’s physiology. Someone explained the differences to me, and I thought, “That’s a really good idea!” It’s amazing that we’ve spent generations making gear without considering these things. I love that we now have more democratic options for meeting people’s needs.


Meg: Yeah, I’ve noticed that too, especially with outdoor clothing. There’s so much more inclusivity across genders and body types now. Of course, there’s room for more expansion, but the focus on inclusivity has become more mainstream, which is really positive.


Moose: Absolutely. I think it’s great to see more specialist companies catering to specific communities and cultural groups. That’s a huge step forward. The internet has made it possible for smaller companies to thrive without relying on big-box stores, which is one of the beautiful things about technology.


Meg: I’m glad you brought up something so positive to start with. But what are some areas for growth? Maybe places where the outdoor gear industry could improve?


Moose: Marketing is a key area. If you’re trying to broaden the base of people you’re serving, you need to create genuine, strong images that reflect society as it really is. If all you’re showing is a certain stereotype—like the white, female model in yoga pants—you’re excluding a lot of potential users.


We need more practical, authentic representations of people using gear. It has to go beyond the “Instagram-ready” aesthetic. I know that’s counterintuitive in today’s world, but genuine use is far more exciting than manufactured use.


Meg: Yeah, realistic representation makes so much sense. It helps people who don’t usually see themselves reflected in outdoor spaces feel like they belong. Everyone I’ve met seems to enjoy being outside, regardless of their gender, race, or size. The outdoors is for everyone, and representation helps emphasize that.


Moose: Exactly. And it shouldn’t be up to people like me to decide what that representation looks like. We need to get better at listening to what people actually want and supporting their efforts.


Outdoor gear can be intimidating. There’s this perception that you have to have the “right gear” to participate. One of my favorite pieces of gear is an old pile jacket I’ve had since the ’90s. It’s battered, but I love it. When you present this pristine image of new year, new gear, and fresh faces who aren’t really using the gear in rugged settings, it reinforces the idea that you need to be a specialist to get into the outdoors.


It’s not just about minorities, though that’s a crucial area. It’s about serving underserved groups and finding ways to make the outdoors welcoming for them.


Meg: That reminds me of a discussion I had on an earlier episode about sustainability in the outdoor industry and how that ties into finances. One thing I’ve noticed is the high barrier to entry in some activities. The way things are marketed makes it feel like you need all this expensive gear just to get started.


How would you approach a new activity and figure out what gear you actually need? Can you give an example of how to get started without feeling overwhelmed?


Moose: The best way to start a new activity is to find friends. By that, I mean finding mentorship and community. When I started in the outdoors, I had people who knew more than me. I tagged along, and they helped me learn.


They also had gear! When I was boating, someone would lend me a PFD—a flotation device—so I could try it out before buying one. Clubs are also great for experimenting with different gear. That connection with experienced practitioners is invaluable.


I guarantee most people who are into outdoor activities have a closet full of gear they’d be willing to share or sell at a discount. In skiing, for example, there’s always someone upgrading their equipment who’s happy to pass along their old set. Starting with people and community makes the whole process less isolating and much more affordable.


Meg: I completely agree. That’s how I’ve succeeded in trying new outdoor activities. I really enjoy cycling, but I don’t own a mountain bike. Thankfully, whenever I travel, friends always seem to have one in my size that I can borrow. It’s been so convenient and has helped me figure out what I like about different bikes. Sometimes I’ve rented one, but borrowing has been a great way to test the waters without committing to a big purchase.


Moose: Exactly. I’ve had similar experiences. I enjoy biking, but I’m not a gearhead or a mechanic. I can do basic repairs, but I’m not obsessed with the details.


I once had someone give me a 15-minute rundown of their bike’s ring sizes, teeth counts, and gear sets. At the end, they asked what I thought, and I just said, “I have no idea what you’re talking about.”


The thing is, we both enjoy cycling. You don’t need to know every technical detail to appreciate the activity. Sometimes, gear talk can become exclusive and boring. People get so focused on the technicalities that they forget to just enjoy the experience. It can create an unwelcoming atmosphere for newcomers.


Meg: Yeah, that's really true. Just hearing you talk about that, I was flashing back to different scenarios I’ve been in where people are explaining something in great technical detail, and I’m just sitting there thinking, “I have no idea what is happening.”


Moose: It’s fantastic that they have that level of appreciation, but the vast majority of people I’ve been around in outdoor activities don’t get down to that very small scale. And yet, that’s what’s often in magazines—how to place a specific piece of gear, with 36 different articles about it. Meanwhile, I wish there were 36 different articles about how to talk to other people when you’re using the resource—to be nice and to build a community. That’s an article I’d actually want to read.


Meg: Yeah, me too. I think when I first got involved in independent outdoor activities—I did a lot of different things growing up and spent a lot of time outside, similar to your childhood—but when I started pursuing outdoor activities on my own, rock climbing was the first one I got really into.


When it came to the gear, I was in college, I was really poor, and it kind of came down to the necessity of specific pieces. The rest I just borrowed from people, like you’re saying. So, when we’re approaching gear, what do you think is the best way to integrate minimalism? For me, it was forced minimalism, and I was able to apply that as I grew into different activities.


But how do you think minimalism fits into the approach to gear?


Moose: The great thing about being in the outdoors—apart from if you’re on a rafting trip—is that weight is the one thing you can control when it comes to being comfortable. The advent of ultralight hiking has been great because you can go out for four or five days with 30 pounds on your back and still be pretty comfortable walking, moving, and sleeping at night.


I like the idea that it doesn’t have to be uncomfortable. For any gear you’re looking at, ask yourself: does it do its job? And when you put it with your other stuff, does it cover the necessities, or is it a luxury? That’s kind of how I think about minimalism. What do I need? What do I need to be comfortable? And what’s in that next circle out—what’s the luxury?


For example, there are these little espresso makers you can take out in the field. I love espresso; it’s great. But do I really need to carry that thing for a 30-second shot of coffee in the morning? Probably not. I can get away with chocolate-covered coffee beans and get the same buzz while carrying less weight.


The minimalist point is that if you’re comfortable walking or moving from A to B, that’s the most important thing. Being unencumbered enhances the experience.


Meg: When it comes to certain activities, I feel like people sometimes get really hung up on gear because of safety reasons. Climbing, for example—you do need a fair bit of safety gear depending on the type of climbing you’re pursuing. How do you think people can best plan around that minimalist mentality while still prioritizing safety?


Moose: There are some things that don’t have weight and don’t physically impact you as far as gear goes—and that’s your experience. Building your experience is your redundancy for challenging situations. Your gear isn’t going to save you on the first layer; it’s going to be your experience.


If you’re up on a crag and a thunderstorm rolls in, and you have to evacuate, having enough knowledge to improvise an anchor is going to be more critical than having two sets of nuts, cams, and double ropes. The fact that you can build an anchor in multiple places and get off the crag quickly is what matters most.


Gear can give the illusion of control and safety—because you’re carrying all this stuff—but if you don’t have the resilience or knowledge to use it, it doesn’t really matter. For me, safety is about having the knowledge to use your equipment appropriately. That’s the most important thing out there.


Meg: That goes back to what you were saying earlier about the importance of mentorship in outdoor recreation. Finding that network and people you can rely on to teach you those essential skills—things you might not use every time you’re out but could be life-saving when you need them—is so important.


Moose: Absolutely. If you have a mentor who can guide you through those experiences and collaborate in your learning, that’s a powerful thing. It’s not just about the technical skills—it’s about building those shared experiences and connections in the outdoors.


For example, I love whitewater canoeing, but I’m very picky about who I paddle with. If I’m not seeing someone’s head turn or them spinning in rapids to check on me as they come down, I don’t want to paddle with them. Those are the people who are only aware of themselves and not the group.


In whitewater, your group is your safety mechanism. If someone is selfish, doesn’t want to share knowledge, or operates from an ego-driven perspective, they’re not the person you want to paddle with. But someone who’s aware, checks on you, and teaches in a collaborative way—that’s someone you’ll have multiple trips with.


Meg: That’s such a good point.


Moose: In a world where we operate virtually so much, rediscovering that connection is another gift of the outdoors. The challenges you face are uncontrived—you’re responding to them in real time. That shared reaction and experience can move our lives forward.


It makes us more generous, empathetic, compassionate, and friendlier. There’s a lot of optimism the natural world and the outdoors can offer, especially when we share those experiences with someone else.


Meg: Yeah, I’ve noticed that experiences really shift and change depending on the people you’re with and how comfortable you are with them. A lot of times, people default to talking about needs in terms of gear and safety, but it’s important to look at your needs in terms of the specific adventure and the experience you personally would enjoy.


When it’s just a long list of automatic ascents or descents on rivers—or like speed hikes and speed runs on the Pacific Crest Trail or the Appalachian Trail—I find that fascinating, but I also feel like they might be missing the point. Which sounds terribly judgmental! I mean, if that’s what they really want to do, go for it—that’s awesome. But on a personal level, I want to see that country and not have it race by me in the dark.


The reason we have those long trails is for the journey itself—the idea that people could tackle incredible vertical gains and, on the East Coast, go from Appalachia all the way to New Hampshire, experiencing the landscape. Really experiencing it. Not totally under duress or stressing about making a food drop in two hours. That just sounds way too stressful for me. The outdoors should recharge you as much as it challenges you. It should help you deal with the chaos of the world.


For a lot of us, the outdoors is how we disconnect and decompress. But I do get it—for some people, speed hikes or long-distance treks might be their perfect outlet. It’s what fits their needs as humans.


Moose: I can see that. A few years ago, I was at a dinner and ended up in a conversation with someone working on an initiative to have the youngest person climb the Seven Summits. They were ridiculously young. I was appalled. At that age, the only reason that person was doing it was probably because of financial backing and an adult pushing them to endure that level of discomfort.


I’ve been up on Denali. I was at base camp on a search-and-rescue rotation, and it was on that trip I realized I hated mountaineering. It was so uncomfortable, and it felt pointless to me. The idea of a 14-year-old being coerced into that kind of adventure—because of the media or financial rewards—is obscene.


This quest to be faster and lighter, coupled with the influence of Instagram, is incredibly powerful. People get caught up in asking, “What’s my best? What’s my fastest?” But are they really getting the most out of it? I’m not so sure. It’s sad to see people race through experiences.


It’s like when travelers say they’ve “seen” all these places, but they’ve only been with other expats and haven’t interacted with any locals. For me, the richest travel experiences come from staying in one place for an extended time. I might not see the biggest peaks or wildest rivers, but I get an intimacy with the landscape that only comes from slowing down.


Meg: I see that across all outdoor sports—or at least, that’s how I perceive it. In cycling, for example, I sometimes have a hard time joining group rides. I do road and gravel biking, but I don’t use a tracking device.


People will ask, “How far did you go? How fast did you go?” And I’m like, “I went this route, but I don’t know how long it took because I stopped six times to look at stuff.”


It really comes down to your focus. When your focus is redirected toward the experience, it changes how you act during an activity.


Moose: I use a tracking device sometimes to make sure I’m getting enough exercise in over a week. But recently, I did this really big ride and forgot to start the device until halfway through. It raised an existential question: If I didn’t track it, did it actually happen?


Meg: No, no it didn’t!


Moose: Right? But it’s a good question. How much does showing what you’ve done define the value of the experience? The outdoors doesn’t care about your data. Mountains don’t care whether you’re tracking. If you don’t have the experience, the judgment, or even just good luck, whether you’re wearing a tracking device or not, you’re still going to have to get yourself out of trouble.


Data has its role, but it shouldn’t define whether you value or devalue an experience. When data commands you and runs you, the system is broken.


Meg: I feel the same way. It reminds me of social media—if you didn’t post it, did it happen? If you didn’t share it, did it happen? It’s a strange question, but it’s also very real in today’s society.


Moose:Exactly. The beauty of the outdoors is that if you go on an extended trip and can’t recharge your tech, three days in, you’re free. There’s no power out there.


On a recent trip I did with veterans on the Gulf of Mexico, we gave them the option to leave their phones and watches behind. We provided a group camera so they could still take pictures, but the goal was to step back from technology for a few days. It was incredibly freeing.


That’s the understated value of the outdoors—it allows you to reset. Natural light, the sounds of nature—they all help recalibrate your internal balance. The longer you’re out there, the healthier you’ll feel. But if you stay glued to a screen or focused on curating pictures, you’ll miss the beauty.


Meg: I completely agree.


Moose:When I was a teenager, I went to southern Africa with a nice camera and took pictures of wildlife. When I got the photos developed, I realized the animals were so small and indistinct. The smells, textures, and sounds weren’t there. I’ve never really taken photos like that since. It taught me early on to observe and tell my story from memory.


Stories are what bind us to our experiences—not perfect, curated images.


Meg: I get that. For some, photography is the reason they set out on adventures. But I see your point—it’s hard to capture the fullness of an experience in a photo, even if you’re skilled.


Moose: Exactly. I was in Yellowstone once, and there was this bear-wolf situation unfolding. There must’ve been a hundred photographers, all stressed out, fighting for position. It was so competitive, and you could feel the tension.


It brought modern-day stress into this fundamental landscape. I have friends who are professional photographers and can capture incredible images without detracting from the experience. But for me, the minimalist approach is best—leave the fancy gear behind. Take an iPhone and get just enough, no more. Less is more.


Meg: Yeah, most of the time you just need a few snapshots to remember a couple of things, and then you're probably good to go. I do think sometimes—this reminds me of what you were saying earlier—we can often over-rely on certain pieces of gear. In some respects, we over-rely on technology in a lot of instances.


I love GPS systems. I think they're a great invention and very useful. I carry a Spot device with me when I go into the backcountry in case there's an emergency, but I’ve also run into people on the trail who don’t have any paper maps or any idea of the route they’re on. Their GPS dies, and they have no way to navigate. You ask, “Oh, do you need help?” and they’re borrowing your paper map. I think understanding that safety piece and not over-relying on gear like that is so important.


Moose: I think the map example is such a good one. Navigation isn’t that complicated—especially with a map and a compass—particularly in the Western United States, where you’ve got vast open areas or prairies where you can see for miles.


You might say, “Oh, there’s that high point over there,” or, “That’s where the river is.” It’s pretty straightforward. To me, a map and a compass are the essential pieces of gear everyone should carry in the field. If you lose your GPS unit—whether it’s because of power issues or you dropped it in the river—that reliance becomes avoidable if you’ve got basic navigation tools.


I love the idea of building resilience incrementally, using small building blocks. Navigation is one of those skills. Learning how to start a fire is another. Understanding how to purify water is another basic thing. And then there’s knowing how to avoid heat exhaustion or dehydration—or even overhydration. Those are three or four fundamental skills that can make all the difference between having a positive experience versus a nightmare one.


Meg: Yeah, and those aren’t necessarily the things you’d think about if you’re going backpacking for the first time. They might not even be top of mind. Finding a mentor, like you were saying earlier, can be such a game-changer. If you don’t have access to a mentor, there are amazing classes put on by local outfitters.


Even many REI stores offer basic navigation classes or intro-to-backpacking workshops where they teach you how to pack a backpack. There are definitely resources out there, but sometimes you need to seek them out.


Moose: Absolutely. For industry-based resources, it’s in their interest to create knowledgeable customers who will buy their products, so those types of classes are often very accessible. Similarly, there are scholarships available for people from underserved communities to attend programs like the National Outdoor Leadership School, Outward Bound, or the Boulder Outdoor Survival School. These programs teach everything from primitive skills to expedition skills and behavior.


I’m really grateful I started with The Scouting movement as a kid. It gave me a solid foundation for outdoor experiences. People forget, though, that our instructors back then were usually our parents. They didn’t necessarily know much more than we did—maybe they had military backgrounds or slightly more experience—but they created an atmosphere where we could have safe adventures.


Today, landscapes are increasingly designed to exclude play, adventure, and exploration. We have to be more intentional about connecting kids to outdoor opportunities. Whether it’s through groups like the Boys and Girls Club, mountaineering clubs, or American Whitewater, these organizations can provide mentoring opportunities. And at the core, it’s all about getting wet, getting dirty, and getting a great view.


Meg: Exactly. The bottom line is having those experiences where you come home with a great story. It doesn’t have to be a story about the mall—though I guess you could have an adventure there. It’s about moments like reaching the top of a hill and touching the clouds. Those are the transformative, mythical moments in a young person’s life.


Moose: Absolutely. Planting those little “diamonds” in someone’s life—those moments of discovery—can be a game-changer. They might not realize it immediately, but later in life, they’ll draw on that experience. Society needs to reconnect with these opportunities and be open to different ideas about how people engage with the outdoors. Instead of being prescriptive—“You have to do it this way”—we should be saying, “That’s one way. What’s another way?”


Meg: Yes! And I think outdoor access is often closer than people realize. I was lucky to grow up in a rural community, but even in larger towns, there are local parks and trails. Kids don’t need a big, grand adventure to discover something new.


Moose: Exactly. You can have an adventure in your own backyard. I remember someone we interviewed at Outward Bound. One reason they got the job was because they’d tried to canoe every river in their county. That’s the kind of adventure that excites me—versus someone saying, “Oh, I went to Nepal and was guided down this river” or, “I went to Everest Base Camp on a guided trip.” Finding adventure in a smaller blueprint is so inspiring.


Meg: That’s such a great perspective. I’ve learned so much from this conversation—your experiences and insights have been really inspiring. As we wrap up, if people are interested in learning more about you and your work, where should they start? You’re also the author of a book, correct?


Moose: Yeah, I work a lot in search and rescue. I’m the Swiftwater trainer for the Yosemite Search and Rescue team, and I’ve worked in national parks for the last 20 years, focusing on search and rescue and environmental education. I also wrote a book last year called When Accidents Happen, which specifically looks at supporting families during rescues and recoveries.


If people are interested in more of what I do, particularly around teaching, they can find me on Instagram at Moose Matlow or visit my website, moosematlow.com. That’s where I share more about some of the other things I’ve done.


Meg: Awesome! Thank you for sharing, and I’ll be sure to include the links to your book, website, and socials in the episode notes. If anyone wants to check those out later, they’ll be easy to find. Thanks for coming on the show today, Moose. It was a pleasure having you.


Moose: Thank you very much for the chance to chat.


Meg: A huge thank-you to Moose for taking the time to join the show and share some of his incredible insights, experiences, and perspectives. This conversation gave me a lot to think about, and I hope it helps you find what you need for your next adventure!






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