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27. Why You Need a Pee Rag (if you squat when you pee) with Anastasia Allison

Writer's picture: Meg CarneyMeg Carney


In episode 27 of the Outdoor Minimalist podcast, we explore the idea of using pee rags in the backcountry in a bit more detail.


If you are a person with a vulva, and you squat when you pee, a pee rag can be an excellent low waste option. If you want more information about pee rags, menstrual cups, and more, go back and check out episode 17 where we explore all things menses and peeing in the woods.


In that episode, we briefly cover some pee rag options, one of them being the Kula Cloth. Because peeing outside is something many of us do, I was excited to sit down and chat with Anastasia Allison.


Anastasia Allison is the founder of Kula Cloth, the first of its kind - an antimicrobial pee cloth for anybody who squats when they pee. Anastasia has been described as, 'mysteriously complex' - and when she isn't doing work for Kula or contemplating the vastness of the universe, she spends her time playing violin in the mountains, writing whimsical poetry or dancing.


Kula Cloth


Episode Resources


 

This transcript was edited to remove some filler words and phrases and is not verbatim according to what is spoken in the audio recording.



Meg: Thanks for joining me on the show today, Anastasia. I'm excited to learn more about Kula Cloth and your journey in general. So, before we get to all of that, can you tell me a little bit about your love of outdoor spaces and how that fits into your life?


Anastasia: Yeah, I have loved the outdoors since I was a little kid. It’s always been the place where I’ve felt the most myself. I’ve always been the type of person who sort of felt like a round peg in a square hole, and the outdoors has a way of connecting people with themselves and with nature.


So I think I just always gravitated toward being outside, having adventures, and being in a place where I felt like I could be me without judgment. In my personal time now, I love to spend time backpacking. I love playing my music outside. I’m a violinist, and I’ve taken my violin and climbed mountains with it and played music in the backcountry.


I love hiking, and for many years, I was always doing these epic adventures. I think now I’m at a point in my life where even just noticing the small things about the outdoors feels magical sometimes—like noticing the sky or breathing fresh air. I just try to hold on to that feeling of the wilderness, even if I’m not there. It’s a really important part of how I’m able to run a business and find balance in life in general.


Meg: Yeah, that’s amazing. I love the integration into your daily life and just recognizing the little things because I think that can be really hard to do sometimes.


Anastasia: It is, yeah. And I think there is this idea that being outside has to be these epic adventures all the time. I knew that was the case for me for a long time, and running a business has changed my focus a little bit because now I have employees that are depending on me. When you're especially in the early stages of running a startup company, you can't just disappear for weeks on end into the backcountry.


So, by all accounts, the last year has maybe been the least epic outdoor adventure year of my life. But what’s really interesting is that it has been one of the happiest years, and I’ve been able to hold on to that peace and ease that we feel very often when we’re in the wilderness. I can find it no matter where I am—whether I’m at home or at work—I can always come back to that feeling.


Meg: I love that. I feel like small business owners often struggle to find that balance, so it’s encouraging to hear that you’ve kind of achieved that in some ways. It’s possible.


Anastasia: It’s possible.


Meg: That’s inspiring.


So, I’m really interested in how Kula Cloth got started and the general origin story. In Episode 17, we mentioned Kula Cloth. We discussed it really briefly, but I think that it’s a really unique and useful part of any backcountry kit. So I’m just curious how you decided to make this and how it even happened.


Anastasia: Yeah, I think it’s a fun story. So, I am a former park ranger. Back in around 2008, I started teaching backpacking for a non-profit here in Washington state called Washington Outdoor Women. I was always trying to teach my students best practices, focusing a lot on Leave No Trace and lightweight packing.


I was on a personal backpacking trip in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness around the same time. It’s really just a spectacularly beautiful setting, and I came around a larch tree and found this large heap of toilet paper that had just been discarded there. I sort of began to think, I wonder, are there alternatives to this? Are there Leave No Trace options that I could teach my students about?


So, I came home after that trip feeling grossed out that people were just leaving toilet paper all over these fragile alpine areas. A quick Google search landed me on an article that talked about using a bandana or a scrap of fabric as a pee cloth.


My first initial reaction to that was, “That is disgusting! Why would you ever carry along a piece of fabric to wipe with?” But because I was a backpacking instructor, I remember thinking to myself, “Okay, don’t knock it until you try it. At least try it.”


So, I bought this piece of microfiber fabric on Amazon, I think, and I snapped it to my backpack and went out on a trip. At the time, I had been packing in and out a ton of toilet paper. Of course, I never discarded it, but you know, if you go on a six-day backpacking trip and you're trying to use toilet paper when you pee to stay dry, it’s a lot of toilet paper you’re packing in and out, and a lot of dirty toilet paper you’re packing out.


I had also tried drip drying on a trip, and I just ended up feeling really disgusting and nasty. So I thought, well, that’s not working. Now, I had this blue scrap of fabric hanging off my backpack, and I was shocked to discover that it was a total game changer. I could dry off, I could feel more comfortable, and I wasn’t having to pack in and out a ton of toilet paper on trips.


So, I started teaching all of my students about using a pee cloth when I taught my beginner backpacking class. I sort of became infamous for talking about the benefits of using a pee cloth and how much of a game changer it was for everybody.


In 2016, I was on a backpacking trip with my husband. We did a route in Wyoming called The Wind River High Route. It’s this really epic nine-day trip, and I had this idea that I was going to take photographs of my blue scrap of fabric pee cloth in all of these beautiful locations at sunrise and sunset. I was going to make a series of cards, like greeting cards, with these photographs to give to a friend as a joke. So it was going to be this sort of beautiful series of pee cloth photos, and I was going to give it to a friend.


It was an evening sunset, and I had my pee cloth perched dramatically on my trekking pole. I was setting up this unbelievably stunning shot with this backdrop—of course, it’s a pee cloth, so there’s some irony there—but I set up this beautiful photo, and as I’m taking the photograph, it was like this idea popped into my head from the ether. It just felt like it came from nowhere, and I thought, “Why isn’t that a real piece of gear? Or I wonder if I could make something that looked cooler.”


Here I was, taking a photograph of this ugly scrap of fabric, and I wondered what causes people to be squeamish about using a pee cloth. Is it the idea that you're just using some random piece of fabric? There’s nothing intentional about it. It’s not a real piece of gear, it’s not attractive, and people put bandanas or scraps of fabric on the back of their backpack and don’t necessarily tell people what it is.


I just thought to myself, I wonder if I could do that. I didn’t know how to sew, I didn’t know how to start a company. I got home from that trip and did a little research into textiles, and then immediately got scared about the money, the knowledge—like all the stuff I didn’t have to start the company. And so, before I even got started, I stopped. That was it. I squashed the idea. Oh, and then of course, I thought, “Well, why would anybody buy this? Nobody’s going to buy it. They could just go buy a bandana. This is the dumbest idea.” I talked myself out of it and let it go.


Fast forward about a year, and I was coming home from a snowshoe trip with my mom and my husband, and I was driving. I was going up Stevens Pass, which is a mountain pass here in Washington state. It was a perfectly clear, sunny day, and I hit a patch of ice that I didn’t see, and our car spun into the path of an oncoming semi-truck. I had this realization in that moment that, first off, I wasn’t afraid. It was this very weird, surreal feeling of like, “Is this really happening to me?” But there was no fear.


Obviously, there’s a happy ending to that story. Here I am still today. But I began to look at my life and all the things I wanted to do and kind of wondered for the first time, like, “Am I making up all these things that I’m afraid of in my head? If I can look into the face of my own mortality and not feel fear, then why am I afraid to make a pee cloth?”


So, I decided that I was just going to go after all the stuff that I had wanted to do and had told myself I wasn’t good enough for. I started taking little steps. I had no clue how to do pretty much anything, but I realized pretty quickly, “You know what? I don’t need to know how to do everything, because there are other people out there who do know how to do things, and all I need to do is be resourceful and start looking for those people who are going to help me.”


I learned how to sew a square, started making little prototypes, and one thing led to another. Very quickly, suddenly, I somehow went from horribly sewn prototypes to professionally made products. And now Kula is sold all over the world. It’s just been such a gift to watch it make a difference in people’s lives, both in the backcountry and beyond.


Meg: Yeah, what an origin story! That’s a little bit back and forth, but I feel like that happens often to creators and entrepreneurs, so I’m glad that you came to it. It’s a little scary the way that you did, but it is a positive outcome. I would not recommend that.


Anastasia: Yeah, please do not get into an almost fatal car wreck in order to create a product. However, I do believe that there is some aspect of awakening to yourself that is involved with the creation of anything. You really have to detach from all the things you’ve told yourself for so long that have ultimately been protecting you, right?


Limiting beliefs are there because we think they’re keeping us safe, but in reality, they’re often keeping us trapped. You have to disidentify with those in order to move forward, and that can be scary—to let them go and walk out into the unknown, just hoping it works out.

But I really hope that Kula can be proof and give people hope that, like, hey, if Anastasia, who literally knew nothing about anything, can do this, then anybody else can, too.


Meg: I am curious, because I feel like the mission of Kula Cloth is relatively layered just from hearing you talk about the origins and how you got to this place. But before that, I also want to know: what does the name mean?


Anastasia: The name Kula means community. And I wanted the piece of gear, you know, I looked at other hygiene-ish products that were in the marketplace when I was in the process of naming Kula, and I noticed a trend. There was always this sort of jokey aspect to it, right? It had a cutesy, funny-sounding name. And I didn’t want people to think of Kula and immediately think of it as a joke or associate it with urine.


What’s really interesting is that when people talk about Kula and think about it, the idea of it being a pea cloth is like the last thing that pops into their mind. It’s like, “Oh yeah, it happens to be a pea cloth, but there’s all this other stuff, too.”


I really wanted people, when they saw somebody else with a Kula Cloth on the trail, to instantly feel a connection with them. To me, that’s the most important thing: creating real community, real connection, and fostering an environment where people can connect more deeply with themselves and others. It’s about cultivating an environment that focuses on the good in the world.


That seems awfully deep coming from a pea cloth, but I think that we’re each given a chance to ask ourselves, “What is the true purpose of what I want to do in this world?” You know, making money and shipping products out there is great on the surface level, but that was never really the driving force for me. That remains true today: Kula is a vehicle for something deeper than that.


A lot of people show up to Kula thinking they’re only going to be getting a pea cloth, and they end up being a little bit surprised.


Meg: So, do you feel that the Kula community is really the underlying mission and vision of the company, or are there other aspects as well?


Anastasia: Yeah, I think that’s the underlying vision. The product is the way we connect with people, but the underlying purpose is bringing some sort of sense of presence and beingness into other people’s lives. As corny as it sounds, bringing love into people’s lives—even if it’s just in a small way.


Everything we do, from the postcards we send out to the little poems we write on our website, to having a peace portal where people can listen to a meditation, or posting dance experiments where people can dance with me for a month—all of those things are meant to ultimately bring some sense of presence into people’s lives.


I think that’s the ultimate purpose. I look around at the world, which can be a chaotic and frustrating place, and I understand that chaos and frustration are symptoms of a disconnect, either within each of us or within the population as a whole.


I think healing that disconnect—helping people come back to themselves and then take action from a place of presence in the world—excites me. If I can send people out into the world with that type of energy, what is the ripple effect of that on the planet?


You know, if you’re just trying to fix the problem—let’s just say the problem is toilet paper on the ground—that’s a surface-level problem. It’s a symptom of a disconnect from someone who’s really in touch with themselves, really in touch with nature, open to new experiences, and truly seeking meaningful connection.


That person is going to be much less likely to leave a heap of toilet paper on the ground. They’re also much more likely to have access to information about Leave No Trace.

So, to me, it’s about helping people connect with themselves, and from that place, knowing that their actions will ripple out into good actions as they move about the world.


Meg: Yeah, sometimes it does feel like a lot of the issues that come up really frequently in the outdoor industry are symptomatic, like you’re saying. So, I really love that representation and bringing it back to your self-awareness and having a greater understanding of how you impact everything around you.


Anastasia: Yeah, it’s like we’ve lost a sense of feeling the aliveness of everything around us. When you lose that sense of wonder because you’re so busy naming things and focusing on, “Okay, I need this gear to get out,” most people are so in their heads all the time that they never really have the chance to go out there and feel that sense of awe that comes from just looking and observing things.


I think that’s something that needs to come back into our lives more because that type of feeling inspires us to take actions that will really cultivate positive change in all areas of life.


Meg: Yeah, something that I’m thinking back to episode 17. The guest in that episode mentioned the Kula Cloth and kind of what it was representing because all of the designs are really beautiful.


That reclaiming of something—I don’t want to say something dirty because I don’t mind using a bandana or something to pee outside—but kind of reframing and reclaiming that conversation and representation of one tiny aspect of the outdoors. How that can kind of reframe your mindset surrounding the activity as well.


Anastasia: Yes, totally. Very intentionally, Kulas are beautiful works of art because it is sort of highlighting the sacredness of our bodies. The idea that hygiene and talking about things like that is not something we need to be ashamed of. That was one of the things I hoped for, and it sort of goes back to the idea of Kula being a community.


I wanted the Kula to be something beautiful on somebody’s backpack, so people would be more likely to have those conversations. When I first started backpacking, I didn’t know how to pee or poop in the wilderness. Honestly, my first backpacking trip ever was led by a man, and I was too afraid to ask him. I ended up stealing toilet paper from somebody, and the whole experience was a little bit shameful for me.


Kula is very, very intentionally designed in such a way that the art is something that could start a conversation on the trail and give people permission to know that they don’t have to hide anything about their hygiene or be ashamed of it.


Meg: Yeah, thank you for sharing your experience about peeing outside. I do want to talk a little bit about the logistics of that and kind of like best practices. I feel like we could dive a little bit into some of the Leave No Trace guidelines and just any general advice you would have for being outside.


I know a lot of listeners are experienced backpackers and stuff like that, but I also know that there are several listeners who are kind of in those beginning stages, which is great. I would just love to offer a better intro or help people feel more comfortable in those situations.


Anastasia: First off, I would say, wherever you are with your backpacking or hiking knowledge, that's great because we all started out somewhere. So if you feel a little hesitant about how to pee outside, that’s also totally normal.


I’ve talked to a lot of people—you can imagine, I talk to people about peeing pretty quickly when I meet them—and there’s just such a wide range of knowledge out there. But in general, Leave No Trace principles suggest that you pee away from water sources, at least 200 feet away from natural water sources.


The only exception to that rule would be in some areas where you’re perhaps going on a river float trip, like in areas with high volumes of moving water. A lot of those places, like the Grand Canyon for instance, will actually tell you to pee in the water because the outlying areas are more fragile than the river itself. But in general, if you're in a forested or alpine area, you want to pee 200 feet away from water sources if at all possible.


It’s helpful to pee on rocks or away from vegetation because animals sometimes are attracted to the salt in our urine, and it can cause a high impact on the vegetation. I’ve peed on the grass before and come out in the morning only to find a deer frantically digging at the spot where I had peed because they’re going after the salt.


So, if I’m peeing in the backcountry, typically I will stop to pee and take my Kula, or a pee cloth, or toilet paper—or whatever it is you’re using—and wipe off. If I’m using the Kula, I don’t wipe like with normal toilet paper, like front to back. I’m mostly just holding it in place or padding dry so that it can absorb any excess moisture. Then, I’m simply pulling my underwear back up, snapping my Kula back to my backpack or my pee cloth, and going about my day.


If you are somebody who perhaps is wearing a rock climbing harness or you're on a glacier, there are personal urinary devices, something like a pee style, for instance, that gives you the option to pee standing up without pulling your pants down. There’s also a company called SheFly that makes a specific pair of pants that has a zipper that unzips from front to back. It allows you to squat down, pull your underwear to the side, and pee without having to remove your pants completely.


That’s also really helpful, especially if you’re on a busy trail—you can literally just squat off to the side and nobody can see anything. But that’s pretty much it for peeing. It can be really, really simple to do, and I encourage people—I've talked to people before who have told me that they have specifically dehydrated themselves when they’re out hiking because they didn’t know how to handle peeing in the backcountry.


I would definitely recommend keeping yourself nice and hydrated and just experimenting with it so that you can get comfortable with it. If you do decide to use something like a pee funnel, like a pee style, I would definitely recommend practicing with that first. I would not recommend doing that your first time at 13,000 feet on the side of a volcano. Just saying that for a friend. Yeah, that was the first time I decided to use a pee funnel, while climbing Mount Rainier, and it did not go well for me. So, I would definitely recommend practicing in the shower first.


I also usually carry with me, when I’m out in the backcountry or even on a day hike, a toilet paper kit. I use my Kula specifically for peeing, but in the event that I had to do something other than peeing, like poop, or if I'm having my period, I’ll often carry a bag that has extra toilet paper in it, a small bag with some wet wipes, and an empty Ziploc bag that I can use to pack out trash.


The important thing is that a lot of toilet paper and wet wipes out there will say things like biodegradable on the package. But biodegradable would be under the absolute ideal conditions, and most of the wild places that we love to explore—like deserts, alpine areas, or even forests—could take months or years for these “biodegradable” wipes to actually disappear.


So in general, I make a personal rule to just pack everything out with me.


Meg: Yeah, because even if you’re burying them, a lot of them won’t actually biodegrade. Some of the wipes contain plastic materials.


Anastasia: Exactly.


Meg: Yeah, just pack it out if you bring it in. Yes, that is a great message. A lot of great insights in there, too, because I didn’t know that about the vegetation and the animals being interested in the salt. That’s really interesting.


Anastasia: Yeah, goats love it. We have a lot of mountain goats here in Washington state, and the goats will literally sort of chase you around as you’re peeing because they want to lick up the salt. So there are areas out there that have really high goat populations, and you really have to be careful about just peeing on granite slabs so that the goats are not sort of decimating the local flora.


Meg: That is great to know. Yeah. You already mentioned a little bit about how to use the Kula Cloth, specifically just kind of holding it in place like that. But I am wondering, what are the main differences—if someone already uses a pee rag, like a bandana—what are the main differences between a Kula Cloth and a bandana?


Anastasia: Yeah, so the fabric that we use for the Kula Cloth is specifically designed for hygiene. That is the purpose of the fabric. It is actually two different fabrics that are bonded together using heat. The outside fabric, which usually has beautiful art on it, is made from a waterproof fabric so that when you are using the antimicrobial absorbent side, you aren’t going to get your hands dirty.


So that would be a significant difference between a bandana and a Kula Cloth. The Kula Cloth has a very specifically designated use side, whereas a bandana—when you’re just attaching it to your backpack—it’s hard to know where you’ve used it.


Then also, when you’re using it to wipe, urine can easily soak through and get on your hands. Hygiene—I'm not personally grossed out by the idea of getting urine on my hands. However, after a five-day backpacking trip, where your hands are just disgusting, it’s really important to actually keep your hands clean—even just on a day trip. So the Kula makes it a lot easier to know, okay, which side am I using, and which side am I touching.


The Kula snaps to your backpack, which makes it easy to hold. You don’t have to tie it on there, and then after you’ve used it, you can actually snap it closed. That keeps the pee side from touching your backpack or touching anything else. It also keeps it clean so that if you set your backpack down on the ground, your pee cloth isn’t rolling around in the dirt and then getting touched onto a sensitive part of your body.


The other thing that I added onto the Kula Cloth, and this was just something that I felt was important, is that I usually found that I would rinse my pee cloth off before going to bed at night, and invariably, I would wake up at 2:30 in the morning in my tent needing to pee. I’d leave the tent and I would have hung my little pee cloth up in a tree somewhere, and I could never find it. You know, I’m stumbling around with my headlamp on at 2:30 in the morning.


So, we added some really high-tech retro-reflective thread to the edge of the Kula, so that at night, if you do hang the Kula out to dry after washing it, you can wake up at night, and the Kula will sort of glow in the dark a little bit once your headlamp hits it. That way, you can always find it in the middle of the night.


So I feel like the Kula just feels very, very intentional. You know that it is for peeing. People are less likely to grab it and ask what it is—although that does happen sometimes. So, I appreciate the intentionality. I feel like it does just, in general, make it easier and more hygienic to use.


Meg: And because hygiene is such an integral part of the Kula Cloth, I am also wondering—you kind of mentioned that you don’t use it on your period. So is it something that you would not recommend using if you’re experiencing your menstrual cycle?


Anastasia: Actually, I use my Kula when I’m having my period.


Meg: Okay.


Anastasia: So when I’m having my period and I’m out in the backcountry, I typically use a menstrual cup. I will use a Pixie Cup or a Diva Cup to sort of catch menstrual blood, and then I dump that out in the evenings and in the mornings as well. If you’re a person who uses tampons or pads, you can still absolutely use your Kula.


The nice thing about the Kula is that the absorbent side of the Kula is black in color, so if you get any menstrual blood onto it, it’s not going to show or have really obvious stains. So you can definitely use it on your period. I would just recommend rinsing it out in the evening.


I’ve actually even had people who’ve gotten a surprise period on a backpacking trip, and they’ve used a Kula as a pad. So you could definitely use it while you’re having your period. The Kula is infused with silver ions, so that’s sort of the antimicrobial aspect of the product. The silver ions prevent bacteria—from excessive amounts of bacteria—from growing on the Kula, and so it does keep it clean and more hygienic when you’re using it against your body.


Meg: Yeah, I was wondering how exactly that works because you mentioned rinsing it out and stuff, but I was interested in how exactly it stays sanitary to be used.


Anastasia: Yeah, and you know, the thing is, when we talk about silver, it really isn't there for the urine because typically, just using it for hygiene is relatively clean. Now, once urine leaves your body, it's no longer sterile, and you're obviously, when you're backpacking, absolutely not in a sterile environment.


So, I definitely can't say, like, "Oh, your Kula cloth is going to be perfectly sterile" because nothing out in the backcountry is going to be perfectly sterile. However, silver ions are there to prevent bacteria growth.


When I was choosing a silver application for the Kula, I did a lot of research, talked to people who were actually scientists and knew what they were talking about because I'm not an expert in that field, and learned that there are different types of silver applications that can be used with fabric.


There's ions and then there are nanoparticles. The nanoparticles tend to be more harmful to wastewater systems because remember, there's good bacteria out there too. You don't want to have a product that is putting something negative into the environment.


This specifically refers to when you're washing your Kula cloth in your washing machine: Are those silver nanoparticles going into your wastewater system, and are they going to be more likely to actually kill some of the good bacteria in there?


The ions, which is what we use, actually, if any of them come off the fabric, they will simply turn inert. They cause no damage to wastewater systems, and the treatment on the fabric itself will generally outlive the length of the Kula cloth.


So, you can use a Kula cloth for its entire life. I have Kulas that I've been using for three years, and now, have I lab-tested them for how many silver ions are still left? No. But I also don't notice a ton of odor from them, and the efficacy of the product does not seem to be any different than when I first got it.


Kulas are odor-resistant, not odor-proof. I will say that odors from urine are a personal thing, and that depends a lot on your individual body chemistry, hydration levels, what you've eaten, a whole bunch of different things. But in general, when you're using a pea cloth, specifically one that's been treated with silver ions, you're likely to not experience any severe odors from using that product.


Meg: That's good to know. I was wondering about the particles in the water when you're washing them and stuff, so I'm really glad that you brought that up. So, when you are out, say you're out for a longer period of time, I'm guessing if you're only out for a night or something, you're not really going to be washing your Kula in the backcountry.


Do you just recommend rinsing that out with some water? Do you also use soap? And then, if you're in a sunny area, I suppose the sun can kind of just hit it on your backpack and sanitize it in some ways that way as well?


Anastasia: Exactly. You're 100% correct. So, if I'm out on a day hike or just an overnight, chances are I'm not going to wash it. If I'm out for multiple days, I'll definitely wash the product. Typically, what I do is I take my water bottle, and I usually bring along about a half-ounce container of Dr. Bronner's peppermint soap. That one seems to work really, really well.


And again, I'm washing the Kula away from natural water sources, so I'm not rinsing the Kula out in a stream or a mountain lake. I'm taking my water bottle, walking 200 feet away from natural water sources, and pouring some water on the Kula. I add a couple of drops of soap, agitate the product with my hand to get it clean, and then I rinse it. Then I usually just hang it up to dry.


When you come home from a trip, you can put the Kula in your standard washer and dryer. I recommend making sure that the snap is closed so that it doesn't get snagged in the agitator, and I also recommend putting it in something like a delicates bag if you have a bunch of items in your laundry with Velcro, just so that the thread doesn't get snagged.


But my preference typically is, honestly, just to wash it out in my sink. It takes like two seconds, it's really gentle. I'm not using any detergents on the Kula. I just usually use Dr. Bronner's peppermint soap, rinse it out, hang it up, and that's it.


Meg: Awesome. Yeah, that seems like pretty easy upkeep to me.


Anastasia: I've been using the same ones for like three years, and I mean, I have access to probably more Kulas than any human should ever have access to, and like, I just never needed a new one. I'm so disappointed because we have so many beautiful new prints, and I can never justify like, "I don't need a new one."


And of course, that's the idea, right? It's like we're reducing the amount of toilet paper. When COVID first happened, there was that sort of toilet paper rush. I had so many people—literally thousands of people—switch to using Kula cloth at home, and they realized, "Oh my gosh, I'm going through so much less toilet paper."


So now, in addition to people who use Kula outside, I also have a whole group of people that are using Kula in RVs, or on boats, or at home. You know, there's so many different uses for it, and it really does make peeing that much less impactful, I suppose.


Meg: Yeah, because toilet paper does have a really big impact in and out of the backcountry. So it is interesting. I kind of forgot about that toilet paper rush, but I could see how having a Kula in those moments would have been very helpful.


Anastasia: Oh yeah, you know, I have never seen so many Kula sales so quickly in my life. We actually had a whole bunch of "second" Kulas as well, and we ended up giving hundreds and hundreds of them away during the start of the pandemic. It was really neat to see that, and so many people have continued to use their Kulas at home.


Meg: Yeah, that's great to hear how sometimes something negative comes with a positive outcome, I guess. Little positive outcomes.


Anastasia: Yes, I agree.


Meg: So, I also follow Kula Cloth on social media, and I love a lot of your content. But it is also pretty clear that you're more than just a pee rag company, which I hope people have gathered from what you have already explained.


But what are some of your other efforts regarding stewardship and holistic health?


Anastasia: Yeah, so we also have, in addition to just the product itself, a sort of virtual and in-person, I'll call it a school, called the Kula Academy. It’s a combination of online classes and in-person meetups that host events. Right now, I'm dancing—literally dancing—with a group of people for one month. We also have classes like learning how to wood burn, watercolor, and outdoor skills and knowledge. We have classes on preventing injury in the backcountry. I mean, the list of classes and experiences we have just goes on and on.


And I would say that there’s not really an overarching theme on the surface of what the classes are because it’s so varied. You know, we have online Pictionary coming up in a couple of months. But I think that there is this sort of underlying purpose of really fostering genuine connection with others and truly seeing people and appreciating them for who they are and where they are in their life.


It’s about focusing on what we want to create rather than looking out at the world and saying, “Oh, this is terrible, I’m just gonna be upset about it.” I want to look out at the world and say, “No, there’s so much good out here, and the more I focus on that, the more I’ll be led to create more of that, and the more that will ripple out into the world.”


I’ve experienced this over the last three weeks of dancing with the same group of people. Folks are experiencing something that they never thought possible. We get emails all the time from people who say, “I thought all I was doing was buying a pee cloth, and now I’m learning how to watercolor,” or “Now I’m learning how to wood burn,” or “Now I’ve been dancing for 21 days in a row, and my life is more enriched because of this.”


So, I definitely want it to be more than just a pee cloth. We also—and when I say we, I mean my sister, Mayor, who helps me out with social media—want to make people laugh and connect them over things that are funny.


We love to do things that bring people together over humor and really focus on that a lot as well. Because it could be pretty easy to go out into the world, look at the news for five seconds, and feel whatever I feel. But if we can bring a little bit of that sense of life as a miracle back into somebody’s life, even if it’s just for a second, I think we’re doing something right.


Meg: I love that. It’s very clear through your entire messaging—whether it’s the learning platform or the Kula Cloth itself—that there’s a lot of intentionality and a desire to add goodness to the community, which I really love.


And if people want to learn more about the Kula Cloth, follow along with the journey, and access any of the information you’ve already shared, what are the best places to find you?


Anastasia: Yeah, so our website is just KulaCloth.com—K-U-L-A and then the word cloth. So, KulaCloth.com is our website.


And then our Instagram handle is exactly the same: it’s just @KulaCloth. Those are the two best ways to get in touch with us, and we’d love to hear from anybody. We answer every message that comes in, so if anybody has any questions, don’t hesitate to reach out.


Meg: Awesome. And I’ll share all those links in the episode notes, so if you’re driving or something and want to look at them later, you can check them out there.


And with that, Anastasia, thank you so much for being on the show. I feel really jazzed about the rest of the week just from hearing you talk.


Anastasia: I’m so glad. My sister jokes with me, she’s like, “Anastasia, you can start out a poem talking about peeing and pooping in the woods, and somehow by the end of the poem, you’ve tapped into the secrets of the universe.”


And I’m like, “That’s just me!” I love being able to combine those things together, and so if I can leave people feeling how special they truly are, then I feel like I’m doing my job right too.


Meg: It’s like your superpower.


Anastasia: It’s my superpower. Thank you.





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